Dear Knossis!
Since I have read your postreply I wanted to write. And did't do because it seemed to me, that there are too much my messages. But remembering all this time your comments, I felt that I keep my energy in order to please somebody, who could read me - so - watch me - and judge me. Of, course, I am afraid. But I spent almost my whole life in fears. (And also this paranoya of five line). Now I am feeling, I became more aware about this and I can stand with this.

So, what I would like to say?

First of all - I so like what you have wrote.
I agree, that it is possible in the most of cases with knowing of HD somehow to determine correct chart.
I already wrote about it before - bur Gennaro's programme made some "gluks" (it is a transcribtion of Russian word - I don't know, how English computers people call it ) and deleted all my earlier comments.

The matter is that here, in post soviet territory, we (as HD analysts), deal with very big number of approximate times and unknowing times. You know - wars, economical collapse after war of 1945, and general slovenliness in all areas of societ life, especially - in medicine, - all these facts don't assist for accurate time of birth of people here.

My husband and me have understanding that for basic reading we need to know the most important things - open/defined centres (channels) and profile. Experience shows, that often we deal with 2 (more rear -3) varients of charts. Sometimes we have lucky case - when there is no changing in open/defined centers-channels during the days - but profiles could change.
So - we ask client list of questions before we could say - that we could give reading.

Now I can add to my arsenal of helping facilities your witty and accurate observations.
When I have read your message - I have felt that it is funny from one side - and somehow true - from another.
After I observed that in the aura of second line people I really feel that somehow they blink (sometimes not in direct meaning, but still...), and being 3-d line in personality, I could say - it is accurate obsrevation about possibility, that they could scratch your head (as a metaphora - because sometimes I did in communication things, which where much more strange for another people - for example - I can suddenly hug person...(in paroxysm of loaylty)..hm-m)

Also I consider, that it is easy to understand, which variant is correct, when I see in the chart possibility of defined center, where I am open. For example, I have open Solar Plexus. I am only in 3,5 years of experiment, but it is not so difficult already for me to say - if somebody is defined in SP. I feel it inside me. And so on. So, we just communicate with them, being in their aura, observing our own feelings in the body, thoughts.
So, sometimes, it is whole story to determine which varient of chart is instant.
But I think that possibility for people to know, who they are, value efforts of analysts.

That is all for now.
Beemala

Really? How about 2 wheels to start with. Then the passage of the moons with their lines. Ungrounded people look ungrounded. Check out Mercury it moves pretty fast. Tribal people look TRIBAL. Collective people could care less who you are. Individuals seem strange. Emotional people have that look that they are in a bag, unemotional people have that clueless put a nice face on things look. Undefined splenics have that look they could feel better, sometimes with a bit of a pinched face. Undefined roots sweat a lot and have creases on their foreheads. Undefined Gs wear fanny packs and are into movies big time. Defined minds have that serious look and we even take them seriously. Right angle crosses have a bit of a myopic look. Jux crosses look the same at 40 as they looked when they were 12. Left angles mean business. Undefined throats dress in clothes and take on foreign spacey names that they think will change them; you can't shut them up and they are known to dance in subways. Manifesters don't even have the time for you. 3s make you scratch your head, 1s can't hear you even when they are 2 feet away, 2s look at you and blink. 4's can be a pain in the ass sometimes. 5s-watch out! 6s are just over the hill. Rectification is hands on and takes imagination as well as the dry doctrinaire written info approach. Just give your client a good look, if you're not a 2, that is. Then take their temperature;

Just Kidding.

In the US each person has a document called certificate of live birth which is on record in the bureau of vital records in the town or city of the birth. There is a box for the time which is normally filled in by the doctor of delegated nurse or midwife assisting a home birth. One can not even get a birth certificate without this document. I'm sure England has a similar system. The hospitals don't keep these kind of records. I grill the person to my satisfaction before I do a reading. After close to a thousand readings I've found that mothers are notoriously unreliable and I see too many 8:30s, 9PMs 7:45s and so on therefore even then you can't be sure. Human Design has many more tools to do rectifications than astrology ever will but will always remain tricky. Try kinesiology if all else fails, the body knows. Also I've noticed that in a reading the person emphatically knows who is being talked about after about 20 minutes or so. If you're not getting this feed back, something is wrong. Can't win 'em all, can't do 'em all it's the way it is. It is an ethical question so don't push too hard to do a reading for everyone.

You know this brings up another question:
Is it possible to tell a person's type? If the person knows nothing about Design then I don't think so because there is too much not self conditioning. Not aware Projectors, for example, are in my experience the biggest manifesting generators I've met. But what if they had a chance to know the different strategies like this person does. The reason I raise this is because more and more I find what the people tell me is more interesting than what I tell them. Granted I'm a voyer profile, but once I got over the scepticism that the system works (my 4th gate) and became genuinely interested in just taking it in, then listening to people talk about themselves is a great way to see how something works. Here is how a reading often goes for me now:
"You have a quadruple split def., I'm told that this is like having four people in one....is this true?"
Then I let them tell me how they work! It is a great way to make the reading personal as long as you keep a tight grip on the direction so they don't wander off on a tangent. And they pay you to learn.
But my main point is that the kind of situation you have on your hands could be a great way to explore. You might come to some conclusion as to her type. It will be only your personal conclusion and could be incorrect, but I for one would find the results interesting. I had a Reflector stepfather for 15 years and he took about a month to do anything. Used to drive us all mad. He knew nothing of Design. But in many ways he was a special person who I think found his strategy despite the world conditioning.

This is a dumb question but is there no way of grilling the mother a bit more? Was it daylight? How did they get to the hospital? What were the details of the birth? Was anyone else around that could be asked? I've found that a lot of questions like this have been successful for me in at least finding out the general time of day that the person was born.

I once asked Ra about finding unknown birth times through dowsing, psychic means, hypnosis...and his characteristic response was something curt and dismissive. Something along the lines of, "Can't be done." There are obviously a lot of people who do think it can be done, though. I personally don't like to do readings for people with birth times found through alternative ways. And if I do, I do it with a BIG! disclaimer as to it's accuracy.

Not that any of this helps you at this point. I know Genoa Bliven in the US has a lot of experience with Astrological Rectification and swears by it. He even recommends it for people with recorded birth times. From my point of view it seems a bit more credible than contacting your dead grandmother for the time. I'll let him know and maybe he'll have input.

Gennaro.