Hello there - this is the third Projector from Sussex, stimulated to make
some observations about Saturn!

I agree with you Michael, about the second Saturn Return - it has been
really big for me. For some time I had been recognising that a great deal
in my life was changing, not especially from anything I felt I had started
or considered, but just "happening". Only when it is placed in the context
of the effect of this revisiting of the Saturn effect does it hang
together. This began happening for me about a year and a half ago, pretty
well exactly on my Second Saturn Return, as I found out in retrospect. It
is, as Ann says, a period when you discard some stuff and take on other
stuff. Very succinct! A great opportunity to dump shit! Once you are aware
of what to dump, of course.
The organising influence behind this deep shift, which first hits at around
29 years old, is Saturn. I recall Richard Rudd explaining that it was in
our Saturn gates that we will be punished or suffer if we do not go with
what is correct for us - it is a stern, strong and unrelenting influence,
but if we accept our Design and go with it then we feel the benefit, and
Saturn treats us kindly. It seems that the same happens at the second
Saturn Return - we review what we have been doing in our lives, and
continue our Life journey with new elements. If we don't surrender to the
directions indicated, then again we will encounter intense resistance and
suffering. However, I feel that Saturn gives us great assistance in
accomplishing what is needed to stay correct in the revised mould, with
surprising energy and resources made available to help us keep to the right
track. To be sure we are on the right track, as Ra never tires of saying as
it is deeply important, is - to follow your own Strategy and Authority, so
- never mind what you work out from these charts, we each have our own
Guiding Star to light the way. The charts are, of course, great food for
the Mind, to help it carry out its proper function of research. The
extracts you found, Michael, were very helpful in setting out how Saturn
works, and how the second Return is as relevant as the first.

As to understanding how they are calculated - any given First Return is the
occasion when that heavenly body gets back to the same place X in the
heavens it was in when you were born. This is not going to necessarily be
on your birthday - even the Solar Returns (obviously one each year!)are on
a slightly different timing each year, it seems. With the major planets,
that take many years to track round the solar system to X where they were
on your first emergence into the world, these are approximate numbers of
years only, and vary a lot from the birthday. So - a Second Return would
start from the time of the First Return, and then take a similar (but not
necessarily exactly the same)amount of time to get to point X again.
Theoretically, this could be tracked on the MMI software using the First
Return as if it were a time of birth, but I have had problems with this
myself - maybe there is someone out there who can describe the exact steps
to get round the problem of non-appearance of that Return. It would be nice
if the new MMI 2 Program has the ability to calculate all these things. We
will be needing a Kiron Second Return before we know it!

Don.

At 11:19 22/06/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>since we're talking about it...
>
>the second saturn return was a big event for me. i hadn't sorted many
>things at the first return, and by the time the second came along
>there was LOTS that needed to move.
>
>wow, did it move! i received a huge invitation, and leapt into living
>my design; and months later i learned - it was my second saturn
>return - my 58th birthday!
>
>Below are some assorted clips on the saturn return, with links.
>Sadly we can't upload files to this list. I have a classic image of
>Saturn (Kronos) devouring his children. You know, the Goya painting?
>Actually, you can find it here: >saturn.html>. Brace yourself!
>
>happy 58th birthday to you all.
>
>/michael
>
>========
>The Saturn return is an important stage in life generally but
>specifically as a marker in the phases of the life of a 6th-line
>being. The return occurs approximately 29 years after birth.
>
>From: HDO - Human Design System Global Glossary
>http://www.humandesignonline.com/cgi-bin/glossary/GetTerm.pl?
>fsGetTerm=Glossary
>
>=======
>
>Saturn takes about 29 years to revolve around us, returning to the
>exact placement of its first appearance in our lives at age 29. A
>Saturn return brings the consequence of standing in one's own right
>in one's life, and taking full responsibility for oneself and those
>who are drawn close to us. It is one of the maturing moments in life
>that everyone, on reflection from later years, will recognize to have
>transpired for them.
>
>From: Human Design System Article http://www.earthstarconsulting.com/
>aboutHDSarticle48.htm
>A second Saturn return takes place at around age 58, bringing a whole
>new understanding to one's sense of responsibility in the world.
>Even though your Saturn Return may be disturbing, ultimately it
>reveals what you truly want and sweeps away the clutter that may have
>been impeding your progress. Your Saturn Return is a personal spring
>cleaning. No matter how difficult it seems to let go of inappropriate
>people and things, the first Saturn Return is the time to do it - for
>if lessons are not learned, the problems will come knocking again
>during your second Saturn Return at about age fifty-eight, when you
>are more set in your ways. Once the conflict is confronted, the
>tension usually subsides. You feel stronger and more capable of
>moving ahead.
>
>From: Saturn Return
>http://www.newage-directory.com/saturn.html
>
>===============
>
>Saturn is connected with such pleasantries as dentistry, divorce,
>broken bones, hair loss, authority figures, and aging.
>We will, in the process of meeting Saturn, need to face our deepest
>psychological fears and our parent issues. They are all related. On
>one important level, Saturn is all about our internalized parents,
>those voices of right and wrong in our minds. In the physical world,
>they may be the real mom and dad we took on, or some substitutes, or
>mom- and dad-type institutions like governments, schools or the church.
>
>From: HDO - Human Design System Global Glossary
>http://www.humandesignonline.com/cgi-bin/glossary/GetTerm.pl?
>fsGetTerm=Glossary
>
>=======
>
>Saturn makes you feel your wounds. He is symbolic of what you think
>is missing from your life.
>The first Saturn Return marks the end of youth and the beginning of
>the productive adult years. Few people describe Saturn Return as a
>pleasant period. While undergoing your Saturn Return you may find
>yourself turning inward and reflecting on your individual destiny.
>You examine your true needs and desires and the role you want to play
>on the world's stage. You may feel lonely and alienated from those
>around you, while family and friends think you are shutting them out.
>But this is a necessary period of consolidation, when you must
>retreat from the distractions of the outer world and focus on
>yourself at your most fundamental level. The Saturn Return is every
>individual's search for the Holy Grail.
>
>The quality of the entire experience and the extent to which it is
>felt to be a 'difficult' time depends entirely on how one has lived
>during the previous twenty-nine years. If you have been pursuing an
>unsuitable vocation or merely fulfilling someone else's expectations,
>Saturn can be relentless in prodding you to make adjustments. Saturn
>Return almost always requires some major adjustments in lifestyle,
>attitudes, and relationships. Anything you have outgrown, or have
>tolerated but not found satisfying, must end now or be altered to
>meet your emerging needs. Consciously or unconsciously, you are
>pruning your life of everything that is not relevant to what you
>really are as a human being.
>
>From: Saturn Return
>http://www.newage-directory.com/saturn.html
>
>=======
>
>Saturn is never easy to deal with because his function is that of
>promoting growth and it is only frustration and pain which at present
>are sufficient goads to get a human being moving. This frustration
>and pain have given Saturn a bad reputation. But the planet's often
>misunderstood value lies in its very ability to evoke pain. Like the
>pain of an illness, it warns that something is wrong. Saturn doesn't
>create the problems, it merely illuminates them.
>
>Growth is often accompanied by trepidation and turmoil. As the old
>self is pushed aside to make room for the new, you may feel weak and
>vulnerable. You want to move ahead, yet are frustrated by a fear of
>doing so, torn between a compelling urge to throw off everything
>connected with your past and an equally frantic need to cling to the
>familiar rather than brave the great unknown.
>
>From: Saturn Return
>http://www.newage-directory.com/saturn.html
>There is so much that has been written and said about Saturn. It has
>a powerful grasp on our imagination. So often it is seen as a dark
>force, the old devil, the shadow, the judge. Its cycle of 29.46 years
>around the Sun has for most of Human existence restricted our life
>cycle and compressed our experience. Since 1781 we have lived in the
>new Uranian cycle of 84 years and the hold of Saturn on the
>collective life is changing. Its new role has yet to be clearly
>established. Much of human consciousness still responds to the
>Saturnian cycle.
>
>As can be seen through discussions of the 6th line Profiles and the
>mutation they bring as a by product of the Uranian cycle, Saturn will
>play an active part within a larger framework. The movement from
>Saturn to Uranus can be seen as an expansion of Human consciousness.
>Three Saturn cycles are roughly inline with the new Uranian cycle.
>Saturn will continue to program limitation but no longer the
>limitation that marks the life but limitation in relation to an inner
>cycle of development. In the 6th line Profile, the first Saturn cycle
>marks a period of trial and error that rather than defining the life
>is a stage to be followed by a different process of observation and
>aloofness.
>
>From: HDO - Human Design System Global Glossary
>http://www.humandesignonline.com/cgi-bin/glossary/GetTerm.pl?
>fsGetTerm=Glossary
>
>=======
>
>Saturn no longer rules the life but it can still be an uncomfortable
>force to deal with if you are not living out your Type and its strategy.
>
>Astrologically speaking, Saturn, often called the 'Lord of Karma", is
>said by many astrologers to represent the major karmic problem in any
>individual's life according to Stephen Arroyo. The planet Saturn has
>come to be called the Lord Of Karma not because it is the only
>element in the chart which symbolizes as aspect of personal karma,
>but because the position and aspects of Saturn reveal where we meet
>our most specific and concentrated tests, as well as where we often
>experience pain and frustration! Since the popular conception of
>karma is that all karma is negative and troublesome, Saturn's testing
>is viewed by many as identical with the action of "karma." This is of
>course the gross oversimplification, as well as a misinterpretation
>of what karma really is. It may be more accurate to say that Saturn
>in the natal chart (especially according to its house position and
>conjuction, square and opposition aspects) shows where our difficult
>karma comes into its most specific focus.
>
>These challenging aspects of Saturn show crystallized habit patterns
>of thought and action which inhibit the flow of our creative energy.
>Such an aspect can reveal the past misue of a talent or power which
>we now must discipline and redirect into constructive channels. It is
>in this area that a radical adjustment in our approach and attitude
>is necessary. Saturn is the planet of form and structure, and we
>often find that the planet in close aspect to Saturn needs to be
>given a new form of expression.
>
>From: HDO - Human Design System Global Glossary
>http://www.humandesignonline.com/cgi-bin/glossary/GetTerm.pl?
>fsGetTerm=Glossary
>
>=======
>
>On 22 Jun 2006, at 11:09, Ann Kelly wrote:
>
> > --- HDCommunity Group ---
> > Hi Becky and all those interested/puzzled beings,
> >
> > The first saturn return is important as it gives an opportunity to
> > assess who we are and what we do from the Saturnian aspect. By the
> > time
> > we reach our first Saturn return, at approximately 28/29 years of age,
> > we have probably discarded some stuff and assumed some other stuff
> > which
> > then becomes our idea of ourselves.
> >
> > MMI only calculates the first saturn return. Some of us live long
> > enough to experience a second one! Therefore by taking the date of
> > the
> > first saturn return and using that as the starting date, we can
> > work out
> > the date of the second saturn return.
> >
> > As far as I know Ra does not mention anything about the second saturn
> > return. Anybody know different?
> >
> > Hope this enlightens :)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ann
> >
> >
> >
> > Becky Markley wrote:
> >> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> >> Just curious - all the other returns are created in MMI from the
> >> natal
> >> chart. For the purpose of an HD return analysis (not
> >> astrological), why
> >> would the 2nd saturn be created from the 1st Saturn (rather than
> >> the natal)?
> >> I don't have the logic to figure this out! Hope there is a genius
> >> out there
> >> who can explain this in a simple, simple HD way. Many thanks from
> >> an open
> >> mind....
> >>
> >> Becky
> >>
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