Our beloved kitty died suddenly and inexplicitly on Thursday evening and my
husband and I have been deeply affected. Do mammals experience the same
possible bardo sequence as humans? Is it advisable to keep the body above
ground for 72 hours? Lastly, do the personality crystals of mammals reside
in the same crystal bundles as humans?

Thanks, Janice

Dear All,

Thank you so much for all the replies I have received concerning my beloved
kitty's death. I continue to be amazed at the depth of grief I have been
experiencing.

I was a little confused by Genoa's reply as I thought that according to Ra
that mammals have a design crystal and a personality crystal and that the
animal's personality crystal is like that of humans, only it is limited in
it's expression by the mammalian form. I thought that personality crystals
reside in the ionosphere of the earth and that design crystals reside in the
earth's mantle. Do both the personality crystal and design crystal of the
animal go to the earth's mantle? If animals do have an individual
personality crystal, wouldn't that be an individual "soul" rather than a
group oversoul?

Any other relevant Human Design knowledge on mammals would be greatly
appreciated.

Namaste, Janice

-----Original Message-----
From: Mariea.Butler [mailto:mariea.butler@getreal.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:40 PM
To: HD Community Email Chat
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals

--- HDCommunity Group ---
Dear Janice,
You and your husbands regard and feelings towards the death of your beloved
pet is 'the gold'. From a spiritual scientific perspective, animals do not
possess an individual soul. They do possess an astral organization which
allows them physical feeling,(not understanding)
Your animal would experience death as its fate. Though there is a
relationship between human Karma and the animal kingdom, the animals place
in that is fixed. It is precisely because they took a different
evolutionary path to us humans that humans have evolved to be able to, not
only experience pain but grow through it.
That is why I said at the outset your grief at the loss and appreciation of
the life of the animal is the gold. It is on account of their different
evolutionary path that we can feel such things.
I hope this does not seem an insensitive suggestion . One of the best cures
for loss of an animal is to befriend another one. (even temporarily)To touch
, tell another animal, can alleviate our suffering, since something like
the transfer of the energy to the group soul can be felt(in my opinion)
The animal rejoins the group animal soul, to do so during the THE CROSS OF
THE SPHINX was indeed a powerful death. Here one moment with the great
mother cat the next! what more could anyone ask for thir pet, testimony to a
powerful life.
PS. They do not participate in the same Karmic cycle that humans do. I have
drawn on Manifestations of Karma by Rudolf Seiner in reply to you.
with love Mariea
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janice Peterson"
To: "'HD Community Email Chat'"
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals

> --- HDCommunity Group ---
>
> Our beloved kitty died suddenly and inexplicitly on Thursday evening and
my
> husband and I have been deeply affected. Do mammals experience the same
> possible bardo sequence as humans? Is it advisable to keep the body above
> ground for 72 hours? Lastly, do the personality crystals of mammals
reside
> in the same crystal bundles as humans?
>
> Thanks, Janice
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
>
http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/mariea.butler%40getreal
.co.uk
>

____________________________________________________
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http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/janice1%40lisco.com

Centers with no gates are said to be "Open" rather than "Undefined". The
primary difference is that when a person with an undefined center has
the center defined by another person or a transit, that gate activates -
meaning the person always 'colors' their experience of that center via
the gate. In an open center no such gate activation is possible so the
person brings no personal coloring to the defined experience. Open
centers are more elastic in their experience of the definition.

kip

Janice Peterson wrote:

>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>
>
>
>Is there a special significance to totally gateless centers? Specifically,
>how about a G center with no activations in the center or pointing towards
>it?
>
>Thanks, Janice
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
>http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/kipwin%40cox.net
>
>
>

--
kipwin@cox.net

Webmaster California Dreaming
[http://www.califmall.com]

Webmaster 3 Birds Studio Kids Site
[http://www.countryfriends.org/KWIndex.html]

Webmaster Mingei International Museum
[http://www.mingei.org]

Webmaster COVA ARTS
[http://www.califmall.com/cova1.html]

This has been such an interesting discussion on the duality of defined and
undefined.

My understanding has been that the terms 'open' and 'undefined' are synonyms
and used interchangably - the online rave dictionary on the JA website does
not differentiate between the terms.

Regarding Karma and open centers, my understanding has been that the balance
between the open and defined areas of our design represents the basic
duality of life. We are always open somewhere, and for some people like
myself, open in lots of places! (head, ajna, throat, solar plex, spleen,
ego)

I have heard the metaphor that the aura is like a radio antenna - the
defined parts of your design are like receivers, taking in whatever comes
through, and the defined parts are constantly transmitting. Thus we
condition others and are conditioned by them. I see the beauty in this being
that we are here both to discover who we are, and to learn about the other.
We fulfil our part of evolution on the mundane plane and we build our
capacity for conscious awareness through experiencing the other in relation
to our self. With each incarnation we get a new vehicle and a new unique
slice of whole to live.

My definition is all unconscious, so even though I have a defined G center,
I don't really consciously know who I am, and I get a good dose of what I am
not through my open centers. Following my strategy is starting to give me a
sense of who I might be but perhaps I will never really be conscious of this
(scary thought). I have recently had an experience that has highlighted to
me that even though I get a sacral response to something, the assumptions
that my mind makes about what that means about me aren't necessarily true.

So I can relate to Buddhabuff's observations - no wonder it takes seven
years to decondition (or recondition, depending on how you look at it), and
that this process is not an end in itself, just the first of many seven year
cycles.

Although I recognise the weight of conditioning in all my open centers (and
I can relate to nearly everything that has been mentioned in this
discussion), it seems to me that the Ego center is almost like a ribbon that
ties the rest of it up into a nice package of 'not-self'. Not many of us can
truly escape the 'tribal' side of life - we are born into and raised by a
tribe. The conditioning to have to prove one's self-worth, both to yourself
and others, seems to run very deep. Whether the Ego center is open and you
are constantly comparing yourself to others and holding them up as a
benchmark, or defined, and you are trying to prove your willpower in
situations that are not correct/healthy for you.

Got an open solar plexus? Gotta prove that you have all these deep emotions.

Got a defined solar plexus? Gotta prove that you can maintain a high or just
snap out of a low.

Got an open ajna? Gotta prove you are certain.

Got a defined ajna? Gotta prove your way of thinking is the best.

Got an open spleen? Gotta prove you can be spontaneous.

Got a defined spleen? Gotta prove the validity of your intuition.

And so it goes on, plus the added complexity of whether the ego is open or
defineed, what your authority and strategy are etc.

If our definition is already perfect, both generally and in its balance of
open and defined areas, then in a way, so is our 'not-self' - just two sides
of the same coin? It's just that following your strategy and authority helps
get all off all the goop and muck that gets collected on the coin so it can
shine like the day it was minted :)

Warm Regards

Ruth

Disclaimer: This email has been written by a 4/6 single generator with open
head, ajna and ego centers and collective circuitry and therefore merely
represents the externalisation of the reconstituted thoughts and inspiration
of others for the use of the collective (or not) :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Janice Peterson [mailto:janice1@lisco.com]
Sent: Monday, 15 May 2006 3:25 PM
To: kipwin@cox.net; 'HD Community Email Chat'
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers

--- HDCommunity Group ---
Thanks, Kip. I've also heard that when a center is completely open that the
"karma" of that center is completed. Anyone?

-----Original Message-----
From: kip winsett [mailto:kipwin@cox.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:17 PM
To: HD Community Email Chat
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers

--- HDCommunity Group ---
Centers with no gates are said to be "Open" rather than "Undefined". The
primary difference is that when a person with an undefined center has
the center defined by another person or a transit, that gate activates -
meaning the person always 'colors' their experience of that center via
the gate. In an open center no such gate activation is possible so the
person brings no personal coloring to the defined experience. Open
centers are more elastic in their experience of the definition.

kip

Janice Peterson wrote:

>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>
>
>
>Is there a special significance to totally gateless centers? Specifically,
>how about a G center with no activations in the center or pointing towards
>it?
>
>Thanks, Janice
>
>

I just heard Ra say on an audio that the completely gateless center has no
prejudices.

From: UNNUR JENSEN [mailto:unnur@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:19 PM
To: HD Community Email Chat
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers

--- HDCommunity Group ---
Thoroughly enjoyed reading your perspective on this matter.

Regards
Inga

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruth Relf"
To: "'HD Community Email Chat'"
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers

> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> This has been such an interesting discussion on the duality of defined
> and undefined.
>
> My understanding has been that the terms 'open' and 'undefined' are
> synonyms
> and used interchangably - the online rave dictionary on the JA website
> does
> not differentiate between the terms.
>
> Regarding Karma and open centers, my understanding has been that the
> balance
> between the open and defined areas of our design represents the basic
> duality of life. We are always open somewhere, and for some people like
> myself, open in lots of places! (head, ajna, throat, solar plex, spleen,
> ego)
>
> I have heard the metaphor that the aura is like a radio antenna - the
> defined parts of your design are like receivers, taking in whatever
> comes through, and the defined parts are constantly transmitting. Thus
> we condition others and are conditioned by them. I see the beauty in
> this being that we are here both to discover who we are, and to learn
> about the other.
> We fulfil our part of evolution on the mundane plane and we build our
> capacity for conscious awareness through experiencing the other in
> relation
> to our self. With each incarnation we get a new vehicle and a new unique
> slice of whole to live.
>
> My definition is all unconscious, so even though I have a defined G
> center,
> I don't really consciously know who I am, and I get a good dose of what I
> am
> not through my open centers. Following my strategy is starting to give me
> a
> sense of who I might be but perhaps I will never really be conscious of
> this
> (scary thought). I have recently had an experience that has highlighted to
> me that even though I get a sacral response to something, the assumptions
> that my mind makes about what that means about me aren't necessarily true.
>
> So I can relate to Buddhabuff's observations - no wonder it takes
> seven years to decondition (or recondition, depending on how you look
> at it), and that this process is not an end in itself, just the first
> of many seven year
> cycles.
>
> Although I recognise the weight of conditioning in all my open centers
> (and
> I can relate to nearly everything that has been mentioned in this
> discussion), it seems to me that the Ego center is almost like a ribbon
> that
> ties the rest of it up into a nice package of 'not-self'. Not many of us
> can
> truly escape the 'tribal' side of life - we are born into and raised by a
> tribe. The conditioning to have to prove one's self-worth, both to
> yourself
> and others, seems to run very deep. Whether the Ego center is open and you
> are constantly comparing yourself to others and holding them up as a
> benchmark, or defined, and you are trying to prove your willpower in
> situations that are not correct/healthy for you.
>
> Got an open solar plexus? Gotta prove that you have all these deep
> emotions.
>
> Got a defined solar plexus? Gotta prove that you can maintain a high
> or
> just
> snap out of a low.
>
> Got an open ajna? Gotta prove you are certain.
>
> Got a defined ajna? Gotta prove your way of thinking is the best.
>
> Got an open spleen? Gotta prove you can be spontaneous.
>
> Got a defined spleen? Gotta prove the validity of your intuition.
>
> And so it goes on, plus the added complexity of whether the ego is
> open or defineed, what your authority and strategy are etc.
>
> If our definition is already perfect, both generally and in its
> balance of open and defined areas, then in a way, so is our 'not-self'
> - just two sides of the same coin? It's just that following your
> strategy and authority helps
> get all off all the goop and muck that gets collected on the coin so it
> can
> shine like the day it was minted :)
>
> Warm Regards
>
> Ruth
>
> Disclaimer: This email has been written by a 4/6 single generator with
> open
> head, ajna and ego centers and collective circuitry and therefore merely
> represents the externalisation of the reconstituted thoughts and
> inspiration
> of others for the use of the collective (or not) :)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janice Peterson [mailto:janice1@lisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, 15 May 2006 3:25 PM
> To: kipwin@cox.net; 'HD Community Email Chat'
> Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers
>
> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> Thanks, Kip. I've also heard that when a center is completely open
> that
> the
> "karma" of that center is completed. Anyone?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kip winsett [mailto:kipwin@cox.net]
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:17 PM
> To: HD Community Email Chat
> Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers
>
> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> Centers with no gates are said to be "Open" rather than "Undefined".
> The primary difference is that when a person with an undefined center
> has the center defined by another person or a transit, that gate
> activates - meaning the person always 'colors' their experience of
> that center via the gate. In an open center no such gate activation is
> possible so the person brings no personal coloring to the defined
> experience. Open centers are more elastic in their experience of the
> definition.
>
> kip
>
> Janice Peterson wrote:
>
>>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>>
>>
>>
>>Is there a special significance to totally gateless centers?
>>Specifically,
>>how about a G center with no activations in the center or pointing towards
>>it?
>>
>>Thanks, Janice
>>
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/unnur%40btinterne
> t.com
>

____________________________________________________
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http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/janice1%40lisco.com

Ron,
I'm just back from a 5 day silent Meditation retreat, so your note is
timely!...I'm a mental projector...open gates in the head, G, and heart
centers...with ajna and throat defined.... I've had inconsistent
experiences with meditation and am only into HD for 3 months, so I went to
the retreat with the "idea" of tuning into auras around me and their
effects....(The other centers do have defined gates but are open).
I was most aware of the open Heart (unworthy, critical voice) and the OPEN G
( "worrier" wondering about "belonging') more than about the STUFF of the
thots and how they fit....which I connect to the head center. I was totally
transformed by the power of the auras around me and it is such a relif to
have the template of HD to lay over these relationships/experiences with
others! To know that it's not all about ME is such a relief....and quite
humerous at times!
It struck me that most religions, meditaiton, HD all have the goal of
Knowing SELF... and yet only HD puts SELF into the puzzle perfectly within
the Community/Cosmos.
This does not directly address your friend"s chart, but it has been useful
to me to descrobe me discoveries to you and hear myself!...which is all I
can do (without having any inner authority!)
THANKS for the opportunity and the timing!
jeri

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Ambes"
To: "HD Community Email Chat"
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Gateless centers

> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> A friend of mine has no gates above the throat..in other words both
> the Ajna and Head are gateless. I had a conversation with him
> yesterday and he was speaking about meditating and getting his mind
> entirely clear so he could better think spiritual thoughts rather
> than mundane ones. For as long as I've known him (20 years) he's been
> preoccupied with thinking and examining all his thoughts as a major
> part of his spirituality. I used to think he was obsessed or fixated
> with his thoughts and trying to transcend the world through the
> mind. I'm beginning to wonder if this disposition is relative to the
> completely open head and ajna. He is a 3/5 MG,
> RAX of the Sleeping Phoenix. Birth data: 11/24/56, 4:16AM, White
> Salmon, WA. USA.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Blessings,
> Ron
> ____________________________________________________
> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/jdlfs%40cet.com
>

Monday, August 08, 2005 , 9:22:26 AM

Pat

Janice Peterson wrote:

>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>
>Hi All,
>
>Would anyone be willing to tell me the Saturn return for my son Tim,
>11/14/75, 19:53, Durango, CO?
>
>Thanks, Janice
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
>http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/patfinlay%40shaw.ca
>
>
>
>

not sure of satur return

6/21/1965 16:30 mexico city DF

______________________________________________________________

From: "Janice Peterson"
Reply-To: HD Community Email Chat
To: "'HD Community Email Chat'"
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] Saturn Return
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:19:37 -0500
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>--- HDCommunity Group ---
>
>Hi All,
>
>Would anyone be willing to tell me the Saturn return for my son
Tim,
>11/14/75, 19:53, Durango, CO?
>
>Thanks, Janice
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
>http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/lunatj%40hotm
ail.com

Hello Janice

I am very sorry to hear about your kitty.
I have nothing I can add (by way of Ra) other than what Inga has said below
that dogs (and I imagine cats too) do not go through the Bardo stages. Thus
there would not seem a logical reason for needing to keep them above ground
for 72 hours. This might be what you would expect as most animals in the
wild are eaten at the point of their death or soon after, so in their
natural state they would not get 72 hours of not being touched. I have no
knowledge about what happens to their personality crystals but it would be
nice to know they go into some safekeeping haven.

kind regards
Eileen

----- Original Message -----
From: "UNNUR JENSEN"
To: "HD Community Email Chat"
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals

> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> Hi Janice
>
> I remember someone else asking me this same question regarding their dog
> few months ago. According to Ra, the answer is no, they do not go through
> the bardo stages, and there is no neo cortex of course. I think it was
> Eileen Smith who asked, perhaps she can tell us what Ra wrote to her, if
> she is on this list, or anyone else out there?
> Ings
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janice Peterson"
> To: "'HD Community Email Chat'"
> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals
>
>
>> --- HDCommunity Group ---
>>
>> Our beloved kitty died suddenly and inexplicitly on Thursday evening and
>> my
>> husband and I have been deeply affected. Do mammals experience the same
>> possible bardo sequence as humans? Is it advisable to keep the body
>> above
>> ground for 72 hours? Lastly, do the personality crystals of mammals
>> reside
>> in the same crystal bundles as humans?
>>
>> Thanks, Janice
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>>
>> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/unnur%40btinternet.com
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/eileen_smith%40btinternet.com
>

Hello Genoa and everyone

Thank you Janice for posting your original question as it has encouraged me
to ask one of my own.

Genoa mentioned not remembering our last incarnations in non-modern human
form, does this mean by inference that we are able to remember some of our
previous human incarnations? I had understood to this point that from a HDS
point of view, we all come in with a 'clean slate' so to speak.

Has anyone ever heard Ra speak on the topic of past life memories, or had
any experience with this themselves?

Thanks

Ruth

-----Original Message-----
From: Genoa Bliven [mailto:genoabliven@mac.com]
Sent: Saturday, 6 May 2006 4:44 PM
To: HD Community Email Chat
Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals

--- HDCommunity Group ---
Dear Friends-

Yes, I am sorry to hear about your loss. Time is necessary to mourn
whether or not bardo states exist for mammals other than humans.
They probably experience something similar in their transition but
probably few of us remember our last incarnations in non-modern
human form. It is likely that they experience a type of immortality
as they merge with their species over-soul. Perhaps, they never left
it. If you travel to the Design Crystal bundle in the center of the
Earth, you encounter these over souls or archetypal mammals as well
as the over souls of birds, fish, etc. Shamans have been making a
round trip to this realm for eons to retrieve souls and to receive
guidance from the animal spirits.

All mammals have a neocortex; this is what distinguishes us from
other vertebrates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex. There are
few remaining distinctions, which human seem so fond of, which
ostensibly separated us from other animals. Jane Goodall (http://
www.janegoodall.org/) clearly demonstrated that Chimps use reason,
tools and possess memory, cultural behavior, and display self-
awareness. I wonder if they live their Designs better than we do,
since what we think we are, tends to get in the way of what we are?

-Genoa

On May 6, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Eileen Smith wrote:

> --- HDCommunity Group ---
> Hello Janice
>
> I am very sorry to hear about your kitty.
> I have nothing I can add (by way of Ra) other than what Inga has
> said below that dogs (and I imagine cats too) do not go through the
> Bardo stages. Thus there would not seem a logical reason for
> needing to keep them above ground for 72 hours. This might be what
> you would expect as most animals in the wild are eaten at the point
> of their death or soon after, so in their natural state they would
> not get 72 hours of not being touched. I have no knowledge about
> what happens to their personality crystals but it would be nice to
> know they go into some safekeeping haven.
>
> kind regards
> Eileen
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "UNNUR JENSEN"
>
> To: "HD Community Email Chat"
> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals
>
>
>> --- HDCommunity Group ---
>> Hi Janice
>>
>> I remember someone else asking me this same question regarding
>> their dog few months ago. According to Ra, the answer is no, they
>> do not go through the bardo stages, and there is no neo cortex of
>> course. I think it was Eileen Smith who asked, perhaps she can
>> tell us what Ra wrote to her, if she is on this list, or anyone
>> else out there?
>> Ings
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice Peterson"
>>
>> To: "'HD Community Email Chat'"
>> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:37 PM
>> Subject: RE: [HDCommunity] RE: Death & mammals
>>
>>
>>> --- HDCommunity Group ---
>>>
>>> Our beloved kitty died suddenly and inexplicitly on Thursday
>>> evening and my
>>> husband and I have been deeply affected. Do mammals experience
>>> the same
>>> possible bardo sequence as humans? Is it advisable to keep the
>>> body above
>>> ground for 72 hours? Lastly, do the personality crystals of
>>> mammals reside
>>> in the same crystal bundles as humans?
>>>
>>> Thanks, Janice
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>>>
>>> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/unnur%
>>> 40btinternet.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>>
>> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/eileen_smith%
>> 40btinternet.com
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> ARCHIVES, UNSUBSCRIBE, ACCOUNT SETTINGS:
>
> http://lists.thefoco.com/mailman/options/hdcommunity/genoabliven%
> 40mac.com

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